Lenny's Podcast

This CPO regrets that product management exists | Tom Verrilli (CPO of Whatnot)

with Tom Verrilli
2 Aug 2026 4 min read 1h 45m

Tom Verrilli, CPO of Whatnot, argues that product management as a specialist function is overused and actively harmful — hiring too many PMs atrophies engineers' and designers' decision-making muscles. Whatnot runs ~21 PMs across a massive GMV business, maps them to problems not teams, and in two years hired just one out of 31,832 applicants. The future of PM is senior ICs doing real work, not directors running alignment meetings.

Tom Verrilli
“hiring so many PMs infantilizes the engineers and the designers who are perfectly capable of making good decisions, but just never had to because there was always a PM to babysit them.”
Tom explaining how the standard pod-ratio model (1 PM per 6 engineers) created a dependency that weakened engineering and design judgment over time.
▶ 7:10
Tom Verrilli
“in the last two years, 31,832 people applied to be a product manager at whatnot. We hired one.”
Lenny reading back a quote Tom had written online to illustrate just how selective Whatnot is when hiring PMs.
▶ 17:35
Tom Verrilli
“there's definitely a group of PMs and I certainly used to be one of them earlier in my career whose specialty wasn't technical or customer oriented. It was politics.”
Tom explaining what's trending down in PM hiring — candidates who talk about stakeholder management and alignment as their core skill.
▶ 18:15
Tom Verrilli
“we took all of our A players and then promoted them out of doing things. Uh and they spent all of their time in alignment and they spent all of their time kind of like coaching and tweaking what their team was doing.”
Tom critiquing the traditional PM career ladder where promotion into director meant stopping IC work entirely.
▶ 22:42
Tom Verrilli
“why wouldn't you want, you know, Messi playing for your team when you rather than trying to kind of have the academy coming along all the time.”
Tom making the case for keeping senior PMs doing IC work rather than promoting them into pure management roles.
▶ 25:44
Tom Verrilli is Chief Product Officer at Whatnot, the fastest-growing US marketplace business of all time, known for its live stream shopping platform. Before Whatnot, he spent seven years as CPO at Twitch and was Director of Product Growth at Twitter. He is known for his contrarian views on product management, including the premise that hiring too many PMs infantilizes engineers and designers.
1
Hire PMs to problems, not teams Whatnot maps PMs to specific problems identified in 6-month planning cycles rather than permanently attaching them to engineering teams. This forces the org to justify PM headcount on every cycle and prevents PMs from becoming comfortable team fixtures who lose their edge.
2
One senior PM across competing surfaces beats two siloed PMs When Tom arrived at Twitch, the ads and discovery teams were perpetually at war over feed impressions. His fix was simple: assign one PM accountable for both. The natural trade-off — maximize GMV from the feed across organic and paid — gets made automatically, cutting months of cross-team politics.
3
Senior PMs should stay IC, not graduate to management At Whatnot, all PM managers spend 90%+ of their time on IC work, and Tom himself spends ~50% on IC work as CPO. Promoting A-players into pure director roles removes the best decision-makers from doing actual product work, which is the opposite of what high-velocity teams need.