How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era | Better in Person
with Ann Pasternak & Michael Roth
2 Sep 20264 min read30m
TL;DR
Ann Pasternak and Michael Roth argue that museums and universities are still among the most trusted public institutions despite the perception of crisis — but most leaders have gone silent rather than engage. Roth has been blogging since October 7th, 2023, posting pieces like 'sickening violence' the same day of the Hamas attacks, without board approval, trying to model the kind of open discourse he says other presidents have abandoned. Pasternak, whose home was vandalized with a 'white supremacist Zionist' banner, says the loudest critics of museums come from inside the arts world, not the general public, and that many of those critiques — about pay equity, white-supremacist narratives, and community disconnect — are actually correct.
Key Moments
Michael Roth
“I'm sticking by the things I said I believed in. Like you shouldn't discriminate against people, that you should have more diversity, that belonging is a good thing. Like everybody any museum director, any university college president would have said that before and in the last uh 8 months they seem to have forgotten what they said they believed in many cases.”
Roth responding to Ann's description of his 'principled' moral voice, reframing principles as simply consistency with past public statements.
“A lot of the major critiques are correct that, you know, we have upheld white supremacy and those narratives for a very long time that were not as deeply connected to community as we should be and when I say we, I mean as a field.”
Pasternak acknowledging the validity of critiques leveled at museums by artists and cultural workers.
“I always joke that we have the worst business model and we're proud of it.”
Pasternak describing Brooklyn Museum's pay-what-you-wish admission policy, which means more than half of visitors pay nothing, giving the museum one of the smallest endowments of any major US museum.
“I knew that if I had not been the president and having to had the task of introducing him at the lecture, I would have been demonstrating against him speaking at Wesleyan.”
Roth describing his personal conflict when Wesleyan invited Justice Antonin Scalia to speak at a free speech event in 2012.
“My husband gave me a painting of a boxer who's been knocked out. And he said, 'Because I see you as a fighter and you always get back up.'”
Pasternak explaining the show-and-tell artwork she brought — a painting by obscure artist George Wilner — and the personal meaning her artist husband Mike Starn attached to it.
Better in Person is a Freakonomics Radio production hosted by Stephen Dubner, focused on candid conversations with leaders navigating complex institutions. This episode features Ann Pasternak, director of the Brooklyn Museum, and Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University. Both are known for speaking publicly on culture, politics, and institutional trust at a moment when both museums and universities face intense scrutiny.
Takeaways
1
Inviting adversaries creates productive discomfort When Wesleyan hosted Justice Scalia in 2012, Roth admitted he personally would have demonstrated against the visit had he not been president. The event — protests, orange jumpsuits, sharp Q&A — ended up modeling exactly the kind of difficult dialogue the university exists to enable, and changed Roth's view of its value.
2
Speak early, don't run it by the board Roth posted a response to October 7th the same afternoon it happened, without board approval, consistent with a protocol his board chair Joshua Boger (founder of Vertex Pharmaceuticals) established early in his tenure: 'My job is to support you or fire you.' He notifies the chair something is coming but does not seek permission.
3
Staying consistent beats claiming principles Michael Roth reframes 'standing on principle' as simply not contradicting what you publicly said you believed before. He argues many university and museum leaders have abandoned positions on diversity and belonging they previously championed, which is a consistency failure more than an ideological one.
4
Most institution critics come from inside Ann Pasternak argues that surveys show museums remain among the most trusted public institutions — and that the loudest critics are artists and cultural workers, not the general public. Many of those critiques, she says, around pay equity and white-supremacist narratives, are valid and the field should own them rather than treat all criticism as an external threat.
5
Bad business models can be deliberate strategy Brooklyn Museum has a pay-what-you-wish admission policy, a $200M endowment (one of the smallest for a major US museum), and more than half its visitors pay nothing. Pasternak frames this not as a failure but as a feature — it creates the economic and demographic diversity that defines the institution's identity.
6
Don't take institutional credit or blame personally Roth credits a mentor at the Getty, Deborah Marrow, with teaching him the first rule of administration: don't take anything personally. Leaders get credit for football championships and blamed for things entirely outside their control — internalizing either distorts judgment and burns energy.